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	<title>Comments on: US Economic Crisis - &#8220;Privatizing Gains, Socializing Losses&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/</link>
	<description>Politics, Technology in Education, Art, Music, Life</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MerrieWay</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-29183</link>
		<dc:creator>MerrieWay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-29183</guid>
		<description>We are still in the midst of this debaucle. In the last few months the economy shift has propelled all of us to reframe our values. What counts most, when expendable dollars are not available.
MerrieWay suggests more unity in community is the ultimate outcome.happening spending more time with friends and family, having fun together enjoying life's simpler things.
With the middle class shrinking before our eyes...restructuring lifestyles and values is mandatory for our physical,mental and spiritial being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are still in the midst of this debaucle. In the last few months the economy shift has propelled all of us to reframe our values. What counts most, when expendable dollars are not available.<br />
MerrieWay suggests more unity in community is the ultimate outcome.happening spending more time with friends and family, having fun together enjoying life&#8217;s simpler things.<br />
With the middle class shrinking before our eyes&#8230;restructuring lifestyles and values is mandatory for our physical,mental and spiritial being.</p>
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		<title>By: 2008: The Year of Limits - Fleep&#8217;s Deep Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-19691</link>
		<dc:creator>2008: The Year of Limits - Fleep&#8217;s Deep Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-19691</guid>
		<description>[...] Privatizing Gains, Socializing Losses [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Privatizing Gains, Socializing Losses [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Hrkman</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15766</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Hrkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15766</guid>
		<description>What a great summary/rant of the current crisis, Fleep.

I'm showing my ignorance of financial markets and stocks with this question, but can anyone point out to me a legitimate use for "selling short?"

It looks to me that it is simply a means to profit from a stock's expected decline. A great way to gamble without the expense of flying to Las Vegas. Even worse, it provides motive for investors to actually work against a companies success.

Likewise, some of the remarkably complicated financial instruments put together during the mortgage crisis actually allow investors to make a profit when the mortgages become worthless, thereby providing an incentive for some very powerful financial players to actually bring this crisis about.

Is it simplistic to enact a 100% tax on the profits from any of these toxic instruments and then prohibit them in the future?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a great summary/rant of the current crisis, Fleep.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m showing my ignorance of financial markets and stocks with this question, but can anyone point out to me a legitimate use for &#8220;selling short?&#8221;</p>
<p>It looks to me that it is simply a means to profit from a stock&#8217;s expected decline. A great way to gamble without the expense of flying to Las Vegas. Even worse, it provides motive for investors to actually work against a companies success.</p>
<p>Likewise, some of the remarkably complicated financial instruments put together during the mortgage crisis actually allow investors to make a profit when the mortgages become worthless, thereby providing an incentive for some very powerful financial players to actually bring this crisis about.</p>
<p>Is it simplistic to enact a 100% tax on the profits from any of these toxic instruments and then prohibit them in the future?</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15279</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15279</guid>
		<description>Though it might be tough to find a bright side during the economic crisis at hand, this blog post gives some good tips for using this as an opportunity for positive change. Dr. Toni Galardi coined this as a “LifeQuake™” and talks about looking on the bright side – i.e, no money to dine out means more meals spent at home with the family and downsizing to a smaller house means living in closer quarters and getting to know your loved ones better. Check it out for inspiration: http://lifequake.blogspot.com/.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though it might be tough to find a bright side during the economic crisis at hand, this blog post gives some good tips for using this as an opportunity for positive change. Dr. Toni Galardi coined this as a “LifeQuake™” and talks about looking on the bright side – i.e, no money to dine out means more meals spent at home with the family and downsizing to a smaller house means living in closer quarters and getting to know your loved ones better. Check it out for inspiration: <a href="http://lifequake.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://lifequake.blogspot.com/</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Corcosman Voom</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15163</link>
		<dc:creator>Corcosman Voom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15163</guid>
		<description>I know you are a political partisan, Fleep. But honestly, a pox on both their houses. Both parties are in this up to their eyeballs. 

Here's the NYT in March, 2007 saying our legislators were thinking real hard (but never actually doing anything) about tightening up on subprime mortgage regulation: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29scene.html?ex=1332820800&#38;en=e09a15f9b118d649&#38;ei=5088&#38;partner=rssnyt&#38;emc=rss

The horse was out of the barn long before 2007. And the legislative roots of the deregulation go back decades. 

Once housing inflation (boosted by subprime mortgages) peaked in 2005, the handwriting was on the wall. The only question was how big was the crash going to be.

It's a truism that poorly informed investors are alternately ruled by greed and fear. The same is true for politics. The last few days have been panic time.

And the media loves to fan the flames. That draws more viewers and readers and they get more ad revenue.

Fortunately, we have more than one branch of government and things may drag out long enough in the legislature for everyone to calm down a bit.

Having the government (i.e. the taxpayers) bail out every single bad investment on the horizon doesn't seem to be much of a plan to me.

The credit markets need some stability but investing is a risk/reward proposition. Remove the possibility of losing on a bad investment and we will continue to see irresponsible investment practices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know you are a political partisan, Fleep. But honestly, a pox on both their houses. Both parties are in this up to their eyeballs. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the NYT in March, 2007 saying our legislators were thinking real hard (but never actually doing anything) about tightening up on subprime mortgage regulation: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29scene.html?ex=1332820800&amp;en=e09a15f9b118d649&amp;ei=5088&amp;partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29scene.html?ex=1332820800&amp;en=e09a15f9b118d649&amp;ei=5088&amp;partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss</a></p>
<p>The horse was out of the barn long before 2007. And the legislative roots of the deregulation go back decades. </p>
<p>Once housing inflation (boosted by subprime mortgages) peaked in 2005, the handwriting was on the wall. The only question was how big was the crash going to be.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a truism that poorly informed investors are alternately ruled by greed and fear. The same is true for politics. The last few days have been panic time.</p>
<p>And the media loves to fan the flames. That draws more viewers and readers and they get more ad revenue.</p>
<p>Fortunately, we have more than one branch of government and things may drag out long enough in the legislature for everyone to calm down a bit.</p>
<p>Having the government (i.e. the taxpayers) bail out every single bad investment on the horizon doesn&#8217;t seem to be much of a plan to me.</p>
<p>The credit markets need some stability but investing is a risk/reward proposition. Remove the possibility of losing on a bad investment and we will continue to see irresponsible investment practices.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosa</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15141</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15141</guid>
		<description>p.s. people have been trying this for a while, but how about invoking the Eisenhower era? 

Check out this article: 
http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew2006/Feb13a.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. people have been trying this for a while, but how about invoking the Eisenhower era? </p>
<p>Check out this article:<br />
<a href="http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew2006/Feb13a.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew2006/Feb13a.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rosa</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15139</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15139</guid>
		<description>I'm going to go check out How to Save the World, too.
 
Personally, I think the way out of this is to support Dodd &#38; other's demand for ownership shares (warrants) to go along with the bailout. The Swedes did pretty good with that, in terms of long term economic payback. 

And then we just have to really hammer the theme of progressive taxation, getting the economy off its war footing and into a development footing (like Van Jones' green jobs idea) and regulating like hell.
 
The problem is, if this crisis actually *is* averted, the Shock Doctrine folks are going to use that as an argument that it wasn't really a big deal after all. I don't know how we combat *that*.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to go check out How to Save the World, too.</p>
<p>Personally, I think the way out of this is to support Dodd &amp; other&#8217;s demand for ownership shares (warrants) to go along with the bailout. The Swedes did pretty good with that, in terms of long term economic payback. </p>
<p>And then we just have to really hammer the theme of progressive taxation, getting the economy off its war footing and into a development footing (like Van Jones&#8217; green jobs idea) and regulating like hell.</p>
<p>The problem is, if this crisis actually *is* averted, the Shock Doctrine folks are going to use that as an argument that it wasn&#8217;t really a big deal after all. I don&#8217;t know how we combat *that*.</p>
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		<title>By: policywank</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15088</link>
		<dc:creator>policywank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15088</guid>
		<description>Fleep, I hate to say I was right, too. I'd be happy to be wrong and look like a paranoid freak on economics. All that said, the Paulson plan is a bad plan. As sure as I am that something needs to be done, this isn't it. I was okay with what happened with Bear Stearns, Merril, and even AIG. If we're going to bail out the rest of these companies, the American people need to get something for it. It needs to include ownership in the firms and the appropriate share of future profits. There needs to be a ton of oversight to make sure this doesn't end up just being a sweetheart deal for the people who caused this mess. I'm cautiously optimistic that we may get some of that (as I posted last night).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fleep, I hate to say I was right, too. I&#8217;d be happy to be wrong and look like a paranoid freak on economics. All that said, the Paulson plan is a bad plan. As sure as I am that something needs to be done, this isn&#8217;t it. I was okay with what happened with Bear Stearns, Merril, and even AIG. If we&#8217;re going to bail out the rest of these companies, the American people need to get something for it. It needs to include ownership in the firms and the appropriate share of future profits. There needs to be a ton of oversight to make sure this doesn&#8217;t end up just being a sweetheart deal for the people who caused this mess. I&#8217;m cautiously optimistic that we may get some of that (as I posted last night).</p>
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		<title>By: Fleep</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15076</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 05:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15076</guid>
		<description>Policywank:  Would you believe the second I heard the news about this latest mess, I had a VERY clear memory of sitting in my apt reading your posts about this topic back on the BBS?  And I thought to myself, man, Dave was spot-on.

This is one of those cases when I really hate to say you were right, not because I begrudge you the foresight, but because it shows just how preventable this crisis really was.  Back then we were just college kids (or recent post-grad for you probably) with a lot less life experience than we have now, if you could see it, certainly others could too, and somehow they/we still failed to prevent this from happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Policywank:  Would you believe the second I heard the news about this latest mess, I had a VERY clear memory of sitting in my apt reading your posts about this topic back on the BBS?  And I thought to myself, man, Dave was spot-on.</p>
<p>This is one of those cases when I really hate to say you were right, not because I begrudge you the foresight, but because it shows just how preventable this crisis really was.  Back then we were just college kids (or recent post-grad for you probably) with a lot less life experience than we have now, if you could see it, certainly others could too, and somehow they/we still failed to prevent this from happening.</p>
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		<title>By: Fleep</title>
		<link>http://fleeep.net/blog/2008/09/21/us-economic-crisis-privatizing-gains-socializing-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-15075</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 05:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fleeep.net/blog/?p=583#comment-15075</guid>
		<description>Sean:  Hi!  I'm a huge fan of http://sleducation.wikispaces.com/ so no introduction necessary.  :)  I actually saw your nice tweet about my article and tried to send you a DM of thanks several times but Twitter was just not being cooperative!

But thanks for your post here too, I just recently subscribed to How to Save the World, and I've been finding it a very helpful resource as well.  Lots of good links and ideas about things that are outside my area of expertise.

I fear you may be right about the lack of natural consequences encouraging the risk-takers on Wall St. to continue with practices that clearly put us all at risk.  As Policywank says in the comment following yours, I think the consequences might have been so dire that it would have harmed even more people than deserved to be, and so in some sense I'm glad that the government is stepping in before the whole house of cards collapses, but at what point do we say "enough is enough"?  

I honestly don't know what the right response is now that the deregulation and lack of oversight has happened, and the results are as bad if not worse than we feared, but you bring up the _moral_ implications of all this and I think that's something that the American public is ill-equipped to talk about.  In our current culture, I think the "pursuit of happiness" has been literally transformed into the "pursuit of money" as an American value.  For all its religiosity, American culture seems to celebrate and reward greed.  I _hope_ this will reignite a conversation about what values we hold as Americans, and what the moral implications of our professed values are, but I worry that even this crisis isn't enough to spark a serious conversation among those who don't follow financial markets.

I think part of the problem is another thing you mentioned in your comment - the language used to discuss these matters.  You suggest calling it "greed" outright, and think we should too.  It's just so hard to even read about this topic, though, because all of the financial market jargon obscures the reality.  If you and I were to borrow $30 for every $1 we had in our bank account, we'd be called financially irresponsible and in debt up to our eyeballs and probably bankrupt - but when Goldman Sachs does it, they're "highly leveraged".  I tried to write this piece in every day language in part because I think all of that jargon is deliberately meant to obscure the plain meaning of what Wall St. investors are really doing in terms that the average citizen can understand.  

It's a mess, all the way around.  

Thanks again for the comment and the kind words, I've been a fan of your work from afar, and I'm glad to connect with you after all this time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:  Hi!  I&#8217;m a huge fan of <a href="http://sleducation.wikispaces.com/" rel="nofollow">http://sleducation.wikispaces.com/</a> so no introduction necessary.  :)  I actually saw your nice tweet about my article and tried to send you a DM of thanks several times but Twitter was just not being cooperative!</p>
<p>But thanks for your post here too, I just recently subscribed to How to Save the World, and I&#8217;ve been finding it a very helpful resource as well.  Lots of good links and ideas about things that are outside my area of expertise.</p>
<p>I fear you may be right about the lack of natural consequences encouraging the risk-takers on Wall St. to continue with practices that clearly put us all at risk.  As Policywank says in the comment following yours, I think the consequences might have been so dire that it would have harmed even more people than deserved to be, and so in some sense I&#8217;m glad that the government is stepping in before the whole house of cards collapses, but at what point do we say &#8220;enough is enough&#8221;?  </p>
<p>I honestly don&#8217;t know what the right response is now that the deregulation and lack of oversight has happened, and the results are as bad if not worse than we feared, but you bring up the _moral_ implications of all this and I think that&#8217;s something that the American public is ill-equipped to talk about.  In our current culture, I think the &#8220;pursuit of happiness&#8221; has been literally transformed into the &#8220;pursuit of money&#8221; as an American value.  For all its religiosity, American culture seems to celebrate and reward greed.  I _hope_ this will reignite a conversation about what values we hold as Americans, and what the moral implications of our professed values are, but I worry that even this crisis isn&#8217;t enough to spark a serious conversation among those who don&#8217;t follow financial markets.</p>
<p>I think part of the problem is another thing you mentioned in your comment - the language used to discuss these matters.  You suggest calling it &#8220;greed&#8221; outright, and think we should too.  It&#8217;s just so hard to even read about this topic, though, because all of the financial market jargon obscures the reality.  If you and I were to borrow $30 for every $1 we had in our bank account, we&#8217;d be called financially irresponsible and in debt up to our eyeballs and probably bankrupt - but when Goldman Sachs does it, they&#8217;re &#8220;highly leveraged&#8221;.  I tried to write this piece in every day language in part because I think all of that jargon is deliberately meant to obscure the plain meaning of what Wall St. investors are really doing in terms that the average citizen can understand.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a mess, all the way around.  </p>
<p>Thanks again for the comment and the kind words, I&#8217;ve been a fan of your work from afar, and I&#8217;m glad to connect with you after all this time!</p>
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